thierry.garré

Ok maintenant nous sommes synchro sur la méthode et la note de calcul cordialement

J'ai retrouvé cette note de calcul de Pierre Procureur. J'espère qu'il ne me tiendra pas rigueur de la rediffuser http:// http://dl.free.fr/qbEWsjuuV cordialement

Et bien justement le débit de fuite corresond a la "capacité " a infiltrer du sol par la surface du fond de bassin. Après quoi on peut efectivement revenir dans un second temps au cacul du stockage "tampon" différence entre le débit d'apport et le débit de fuite par la durée de la pluie. Pour la première étape ,je pense que des tests d'infiltration sont plus que nécessaire pour aprecier reelement le débit de fuite/infiltration je regarde dans mes notes si je trouve une feuille de calcul

Lili2006 attention je pense que tu es totaleme n'y hors sujet Guess parle de bassin d'infiltration et non de stockage......

Parfait, Merci dezhopper, tout le travail sera maintenant dans le géoréférencement correct cordialement

Salut Olivier, effectivement cela serait pas mal du tout.... Tu as remarqué le champs IMAGEPATH juste au dessus de l'image ???

un grand merci Patrick d'avoir conseillé ce produit, je pourrais dorénavant poster avec beaucoup moins de fautes d'orthographe qu'au préalable. La preuve en est, que je suis en train de le faire.

Non, il s'agit d'une texture (photopanoramique de ciel) appliquée à l'intérieur d'un cylindre englobant le projet

Pas d'accord je trouve cette affirmation vraiment gratuite , d'autant que tu dis le contraire juste après le noyau Autocad n'a besoin de personne pour planter.

Salut Lili2006 si dessous un lien vers un film réalisé intégralement avec Autopiste,Covadis et Autocad en guise d'exemple de ce qui est possible http://webtv.batiproduits.com/searchvideo.php?query=AUTOPISTE&t=_20100417_095740_9369&videoId=156&page=1 cordialement

Ahahah.... réponse de l'hémisphère sud avec des polylignes 3D et de l'hémisphère nord avec des Splines Salut Didier..... :D

Pour faire des courbes de niveau dans COVADIS il faut un MNT Pour Faire un MNT il faut des POINTS ou/et DES LIGNES DE RUPTURES DE PENTES Suggestion tu créer une polyligne 2D caler à l'ELEVATION que tu souhaites (il sagira du pied de ta DUNE) tu DECALE la polyligne vers l'intérieur de la valeur de ton choix tu la cale en ELEVATION tu les lisses en les transformant en SPLINE COV. EDITION/POLYLIGNES/LISSER (pspline) Toutes ces ENTITES formeront LES LIGNES DE RUPTURES DE PENTES (citées plus haut) tu crée un MNT OBjet à l'aide de ces lignes après avoir ISOLER le CALQUE qui les contient COVADIS 3D/MNT OBJET/OBJET VISIBLE VERS MNT Dans la fenêtre des PROPRIETES d'AUTOCAD tu pourras jouer sur la représentation de CET OBJET (triangles, textures, courbes de niveau) en cliquant sur LES LIGNES DE RUPTURES DE PENTES tu pourra déformer dynamiquement [surligneur]ta jolie dune paysagére [/surligneur]

Bonjour, personellement je passerai plutot par un profil en long par polyligne 3D (si c'est une coupe) ou une série de profils en travers par polylignes 3D (si plusieurs profils perpendiculaire à un axe) avec une intepolation sur MNT (de tous les MNT à projeter) ces commandes sont dans le menu COVADIS 3D profil en long par polylignes 3D OU profils en travers par polyligne 3D Cordialement Thierry Garré

Bonjour, Alors la vraiment , mais vraiment vraiment vraiment rien compris!!!!!! un petit effort SVP si tu souhaites réellement avoir des réponses cordialement

Problème résolu par l'auteur du Lisp en aout 2010 Donc tout va bien si dessous le code de ce lisp fabuleux cordialement ;| F2S.lsp (Faces-to-Solid) Creates a single ACIS solid from selected 3dfaces, touching or not by Bill Gilliss bill at realerthanreal dot com Comments and suggestions always welcome. No warranty, either expressed or implied, is made as to the fitness of this information for any particular purpose. All materials are to be considered 'as-is', and use thereof should be considered as at your own risk. Release Notes: 1.00 8/23/2006 - Original release. 1.01 8/26/2006 - SPLFRAME=1 to be sure faces are visible and therefore selectable. - polyline area threshold increased to prevent solid creation errors. 1.02 8/28/2006 - international syntax fix. 1.03 7/13/2007 - Option added to erase faces as they are converted to solids. 1.10 3/8/2010 - 2010 compatible (change in AREA command) and rewritten as modular code - ExpressTools progress bar added, if ET installed - GRIDMODE set to prevent flicker Summary: As in M2S.lsp, the solid is created on the current layer by projecting each selected face vertically "down" the CURRENT z-axis to a plane a user-specified distance below the lowest vertex. To assure that all parts of the mesh are generated as solids, this distance can not be zero, but the solid can be SLICEd later if need be. Quite complex solids can be created by projecting the faces along several different axes, then using INTERFERE or INTERSECT to create the final solid from the intermediate ones. Notes: - Thanks to Gilles Chanteau, Dr. Heinz-Joachim Schulz, and Robert Morin - Works with all releases that support 3D solids. - If adjacent faces do not have identical coordinates, there will be very small gaps or overlaps between the solids derived from them, which can cause AutoCAD to fail to be able to union the solids. Common results: "Inconsistent containment of intersection curve." "Inconsistent information in vertex and coedge coordinates." "Inconsistent edge-face relationships." "Inconsistent face-body relationships." "Curves osculate at vertex - cannot evaluate order." The best way to fix the face vertices before running F2S is to use 3DSOUT with Auto-Welding turned on with an appropriate threshold, then 3DSIN to bring the welded mesh back into AutoCAD, then EXPLODE and run F2S. The larger the threshold distance, the fewer the problems. 3DS MAX and Rhino can also do the vertex welding when importing an AutoCAD file. If one of these are available, save or wblock the faces to a new DWG file, and then import the new file with Weld turned on with an appropriate threshold. Export to 3DS format, and then use 3DSIN in AutoCAD. The ANNEAL command in EasySite from Cadeasy Corp will also fix the 3dface vertices with a user-specified tolerance, without leaving AutoCAD. If problematic solids do persist, copying them a small distance and then unioning the copies with the original will usually fill the gaps and resolve these problems. Some manual unioning might still be necessary with any of these approaches -- deal with it. Keywords: AutoCAD AutoLISP 3dsolid 3dface face convert ========================================================================= |; (defun c:f2s (/ ss ent ed bot bottom partialsolid R17 n partialsolid num low10 low11 low12 low13 p1 p2 p3 p4 c1 c2 c3 c4 b1 b2 b3 b4 soldepth sspartial ssfinal ETloaded *solidhist *cmdecho *osmode *blipmode *splframe myerror setup getFaces getLowestVertex getThickness initializeSets createSolids unionSolids getPoints area3p F2SLoft ) ;;-----subroutines---------------- (defun myerror (msg) (princ msg) (setvar 'osmode *osmode) (setvar 'blipmode *blipmode) (setvar 'delobj *delobj) (setvar 'splframe *splframe) (setvar 'solidhist *solidhist) (setvar 'gridmode *gridmode) (if ETloaded (acet-ui-progress)) (command "_.undo" "_end") (setq *error* olderror) (setvar 'cmdecho *cmdecho) (princ) ) (defun setup () (command "_.undo" "_begin") (setq *cmdecho (getvar 'cmdecho)) (setq *osmode (getvar 'osmode)) (setq *blipmode (getvar 'blipmode)) (setq *delobj (getvar 'delobj)) (setq *splframe (getvar 'splframe)) (setq *gridmode (getvar 'gridmode)) (setvar 'cmdecho 0) (setvar 'osmode 0) (setvar 'blipmode 0) (setvar 'delobj 1) (setvar 'splframe 1) ;; edges must be visible for faces to be selectable (setvar 'gridmode 0) ;; avoids flicker (command "_.regen") (if (< 16 (atoi (substr (getvar "acadver") 1 2))) (setq R17 T)) (if R17 (setq *solidhist (getvar 'solidhist))) (if R17 (setvar 'solidhist 0)) (if (member "acetutil.arx" (arx)) (setq ETloaded T) ) (setq olderror *error*) (setq *error* myerror) (alert "Face-to-Solid loaded. Type F2S to run the program. \nNote: if many faces are selected, AutoCAD may crash due to memory limitations when unioning the many solids created from them, so please \nSAVE ALL OPEN DRAWINGS \n before using this routine with large numbers of faces. The routine will prompt for automatic or manual unioning; select manual to do the unioning yourself in smaller increments if automatic causes problems. \nAlso, see the introductory comments in the LISP file about cleaning up face coordinates to avoid unioning errors.") ) (defun getFaces () (prompt "Select 3dface(s) to solidify: ") (setq ss (ssget '((0 . "3dface")))) (initget 1 "Yes No") (setq erasefaces (getkword "Erase faces [Yes or No]: ")) ) (defun getLowestVertex () (setq ent (ssname ss 0)) (setq ed (entget ent)) (setq bottom (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 10 ed)) 0 1))) ;;find lowest vertex in selection set of faces (setq n 0) (while (< n (sslength ss)) (progn (setq ent (ssname ss n)) (setq ed (entget ent)) (setq low10 (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 10 ed)) 0 1))) (setq low11 (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 11 ed)) 0 1))) (setq low12 (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 12 ed)) 0 1))) (setq low13 (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 13 ed)) 0 1))) (setq bottom (min bottom low10 low11 low12 low13)) (setq n (1+ n)) );progn );while ) (defun getThickness () (setq soldepth 0) (while (zerop soldepth) (progn (setq soldepth (getdist "\nEnter desired thickness of solid below lowest vertex <1>: ")) (if (not soldepth) (setq soldepth 1.0)) (if (zerop soldepth) (princ "\nThickness can be small, but not zero. (Slice it later, if need be.)")) );progn );while (setq bot (- bottom (abs soldepth))) ) (defun initializeSets () (setq sspartial (ssadd)) ;initialize partial set of extruded segments to be unioned together (setq ssfinal (ssadd)) ;initialize final set of solids (princ "\nUnioning large number of small solids can lock up AutoCAD") (princ "\nif memory limits are exceeded. Would you like to continue") (princ "\nwith automatic unioning, or union them manually?") (initget 1 "Auto Manual") (setq reply (getkword " Auto or Manual?")) (setq reply (substr reply 1 1)) ) (defun createSolids () (if ETloaded (acet-ui-progress "Progress: " (sslength ss))) (setq num (sqrt (sslength ss))) ;;number of partial solids to create (setq n 0) (setq partialsolid 0) (setq time1 (getvar "DATE")) (while (< n (sslength ss)) (progn (getPoints) (F2SLoft c1 c2 c3 b1 b2 b3) (F2SLoft c3 c4 c1 b3 b4 b1) (if (= erasefaces "Yes") (entdel ent)) (setq partialsolid (1+ partialsolid)) (if (or (>= partialsolid num) (= n (1- (sslength ss)))) (if (= reply "A") (progn (setq partialsolid 0) (command "_.union" sspartial "") (ssadd (entlast) ssfinal) (setq sspartial (ssadd)) ;;re-initialize with empty set );progn );if );if (if ETloaded (acet-ui-progress n)) (setq n (1+ n)) );progn );while ) (defun unionSolids () (if (= reply "A") (progn (grtext -1 "Unioning final solid...") (command "_.union" ssfinal "") );progn );if ) (defun getPoints() (setq ent (ssname ss n)) (setq ed (entget ent)) (setq p1 (assoc 10 ed) ;first vertex of face p2 (assoc 11 ed) p3 (assoc 12 ed) p4 (assoc 13 ed)) (setq c1 (trans (cdr p1) 0 1) ;top coordinates c2 (trans (cdr p2) 0 1) c3 (trans (cdr p3) 0 1) c4 (trans (cdr p4) 0 1)) (setq b1 (list (car c1) (cadr c1) bot) ;bottom coordinates b2 (list (car c2) (cadr c2) bot) b3 (list (car c3) (cadr c3) bot) b4 (list (car c4) (cadr c4) bot)) ) (defun F2SLoft (r1 r2 r3 s1 s2 s3 / e1 extr highest) (if (> (area3p s1 s2 s3) 0.000001) ;;avoid problems with tiny solids (progn (command "_.pline" s1 s2 s3 "_close") (setq highest (max (caddr r1) (caddr r2) (caddr r3))) (setq extr (- highest bot)) (if R17 (command "_.extrude" (entlast) "" extr) ;;2007 and higher (command "_.extrude" (entlast) "" extr 0.0) ;;2006 and below );endif (if ;;don't slice if top is flat (not (and (equal (caddr r1) (caddr r2)) (equal (caddr r1) (caddr r3)) );and );not (command "_.slice" (entlast) "" "_3points" r1 r2 r3 s1) );if (ssadd (entlast) sspartial) );progn );if );defun (defun area3p (p1 p2 p3 / a b c s) (setq a (distance p1 p2) b (distance p2 p3) c (distance p3 p1) s (* 0.5 (+ a b c)) ) (sqrt (* s (- s a) (- s B) (- s c) ) ) ) ;;========== MAIN ROUTINE ========================= (setup) (getFaces) (getLowestVertex) (getThickness) (initializeSets) (createSolids) (unionSolids) (myerror nil) ;;cleanup );defun F2S

Merci Didier de ta réponse, Je me doutais bien d'un soucis de ce genre...... .....Toujours à l'aide toutefois si quelqu'un a un peu de temps PS: t'es ou dans l'hémisphère sud? Mada ?

Bonsoir à tous, j'utilise ce lisp pour transformer un MNT (3dfaces) en solide sur 2008 sans probleme , mais en 2010 y fonctionne plus du tout!!!!! Et comme je suis une bille en lisp je suis incapable de savoir d'ou cela vient à l'aide PS je repond 1 à la premiere question et Auto à la seconde ;| F2S.lsp (Faces-to-Solid) Creates a single ACIS solid from selected 3dfaces, touching or not (c) Copyright 2006 by Bill Gilliss. All rights reserved... such as they are. Comments and suggestions always welcome. bill.gilliss@<<NOSPAM>>aya.yale.edu gilliss@<<NOSPAM>>iglou.com Version: 1.01 Date: 8/26/2006 Release Notes: 1.00 8/23/2006 Original release 1.01 8/26/2006 SPLFRAME=1 to be sure faces are visible and therefore selectable polyline area threshold increased to prevent solid creation errors Summary: As in M2S.lsp, the solid is created on the current layer by projecting each selected face vertically "down" the CURRENT z-axis to a plane a user-specified distance below the lowest vertex. To assure that all parts of the mesh are generated as solids, this distance can not be zero, but the solid can be SLICEd later if need be. Notes: - Works with AutoCAD 2007 as well as all previous releases that support 3D solids. - Thanks to Gilles Chanteau for R2007 and international syntax suggestions. - If adjacent faces do not have identical coordinates, there will be very small gaps or overlaps between the solids derived from them, which can cause AutoCAD to fail to be able to union the solids. Common results: "Inconsistent containment of intersection curve." "Inconsistent information in vertex and coedge coordinates." "Inconsistent edge-face relationships." "Inconsistent face-body relationships." "Curves osculate at vertex - cannot evaluate order." Many thanks to Robert Morin for suggesting that, for AutoCAD 2006 and earlier, the best way to fix the face vertices before running F2S is to use 3DSOUT with Auto-Welding turned on with an appropriate threshold, then 3DSIN to bring the welded mesh back into AutoCAD, then EXPLODE and run F2S. The larger the threshold distance, the fewer the problems. (R2007 does not have 3DSOUT, alas.) VIZ or 3DS MAX can also do the vertex welding when importing an AutoCAD file. If one of these are available, save or wblock the faces to a new DWG file, and then import the new file into VIZ with Weld turned on with an appropriate threshold. Export to 3DS format, and then use 3DSIN in AutoCAD. The ANNEAL command in EasySite from Cadeasy Corp. will also fix the 3dface vertices with a user-specified tolerance, without leaving AutoCAD. If problematic solids do persist, copying them a small distance and then unioning the copies with the original will usually fill the gaps and resolve these problems. Some manual unioning might still be necessary with any of these approaches -- deal with it. |; (defun c:f2s ( / ss ent ed bot bottom partialsolid R17 n partialsolid num low10 low11 low12 low13 p1 p2 p3 p4 c1 c2 c3 c4 b1 b2 b3 b4 soldepth sspartial ssfinal oldsolidhist oldecho oldsnap oldblip oldsplframe ) (setq oldecho (getvar "cmdecho")) (command "_.undo" "_begin") (setq oldsnap (getvar "osmode")) (setq oldblip (getvar "blipmode")) (setq oldsplframe (getvar "splframe")) (setvar "cmdecho" 0) (setvar "osmode" 0) (setvar "blipmode" 0) (setvar "splframe" 1) ;; edges must be visible for (command "_.regen") ;; faces to be selectable (if (< 16 (atoi (substr (getvar "acadver") 1 2))) (setq R17 T)) (if R17 (setq oldsolidhist (getvar "solidhist"))) (if R17 (setvar "solidhist" 0)) ;;select the faces (prompt "Select 3dface(s) to solidify: ") (setq ss (ssget '((0 . "3dface")))) ;;initialize lowest value (setq ent (ssname ss 0)) (setq ed (entget ent)) (setq bottom (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 10 ed)) 0 1))) ;;find lowest vertex in selection set of faces (setq n 0) (while (< n (sslength ss)) (progn (setq ent (ssname ss n)) (setq ed (entget ent)) (setq low10 (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 10 ed)) 0 1))) (setq low11 (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 11 ed)) 0 1))) (setq low12 (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 12 ed)) 0 1))) (setq low13 (caddr (trans (cdr (assoc 13 ed)) 0 1))) (setq bottom (min bottom low10 low11 low12 low13)) (setq n (1+ n)) );progn );while ;; get desired thickness of solid (setq soldepth 0) (while (zerop soldepth) (progn (setq soldepth (getdist "\nEnter desired thickness of solid below lowest vertex <1>: ")) (if (not soldepth) (setq soldepth 1.0)) (if (zerop soldepth) (princ "\nThickness can be small, but not zero. (Slice it later, if need be.)")) );progn );while (setq bot (- bottom (abs soldepth))) ;; initialize selection sets to receive solids (setq sspartial (ssadd)) ;initialize partial set of extruded segments to be unioned together (setq ssfinal (ssadd)) ;initialize final set of solids (princ "\nUnioning large number of small solids can lock up AutoCAD") (princ "\nif memory limits are exceeded. Would you like to continue") (princ "\nwith automatic unioning, or union them manually?") (initget 1 "Auto Manual") (setq reply (getkword " Auto or Manual?")) (setq reply (substr reply 1 1)) ;;create solids (setq num (sqrt (sslength ss))) ;;number of partial solids to create (setq n 0) (setq partialsolid 0) (setq time1 (getvar "DATE")) (while (< n (sslength ss)) (progn (setq ent (ssname ss n)) (setq ed (entget ent)) (setq p1 (assoc 10 ed) ;first vertex of face p2 (assoc 11 ed) p3 (assoc 12 ed) p4 (assoc 13 ed)) (setq c1 (trans (cdr p1) 0 1) ;top coordinates c2 (trans (cdr p2) 0 1) c3 (trans (cdr p3) 0 1) c4 (trans (cdr p4) 0 1)) (setq b1 (list (car c1) (cadr c1) bot) ;bottom coordinates b2 (list (car c2) (cadr c2) bot) b3 (list (car c3) (cadr c3) bot) b4 (list (car c4) (cadr c4) bot)) (LOFT c1 c2 c3 b1 b2 b3) (LOFT c3 c4 c1 b3 b4 b1) (setq partialsolid (1+ partialsolid)) (if (or (>= partialsolid num) (= n (1- (sslength ss)))) (if (= reply "A") (progn (setq partialsolid 0) (command "_.union" sspartial "") (ssadd (entlast) ssfinal) (setq sspartial (ssadd)) ;;re-initialize with empty set );progn );if );if (progress n (sslength ss)) (setq n (1+ n)) );progn );while (if (= reply "A") (progn (grtext -1 "Unioning final solid...") (command "_.union" ssfinal "") );progn );if ;;cleanup (setvar "osmode" oldsnap) (setvar "blipmode" oldblip) (setvar "splframe" oldsplframe) (if R17 (setvar "solidhist" oldsolidhist)) (setq sspartial nil ssfinal nil) (command "_.undo" "_end") (grtext) (setvar "cmdecho" oldecho) (princ) );defun ;;============== SUBROUTINES ==================== (defun LOFT (r1 r2 r3 s1 s2 s3 / e1 extr highest) (command "_.area" s1 s2 s3 "") (if (> (getvar "area") 0.000001) ;;avoid problems with tiny solids (progn (command "_.pline" s1 s2 s3 "c") (setq highest (max (caddr r1) (caddr r2) (caddr r3))) (setq extr (- highest bot)) (if R17 (command "_.extrude" (entlast) "" extr) ;;2007 and higher (command "_.extrude" (entlast) "" extr 0.0) ;;2006 and below );endif (if ;;don't slice if top is flat (not (and (equal (caddr r1) (caddr r2)) (equal (caddr r1) (caddr r3)) );and );not (command "_.slice" (entlast) "" "_3points" r1 r2 r3 s1) );if (ssadd (entlast) sspartial) );progn );if );defun (defun progress (current total / time2 time3 elapsed complete ;;time1 is a global variable projected r days hours minutes seconds message) (if (and (> current 0) ;;skip first one to avoid divide by 0 (= 0 (rem (fix current) 10)) ;;only update every 10th iteration );and (progn (if (not time1) (setq time1 (getvar "date"))) ;initialize here if neglected in calling code (setq time2 (getvar "date")) (setq time3 (- time2 time1)) (setq elapsed (* 86400 time3)) ;;elapsed time in seconds (setq complete (/ current total 1.0)) ;;decimal value betw 0.0 and 1.0 (setq projected (/ elapsed complete)) ;;projected time in seconds (setq r (- projected elapsed)) ;;remaining time in seconds (setq days (fix (/ r 86400)) r (- r (* days 86400)) hours (fix (/ r 3600)) r (- r (* hours 3600)) minutes (fix (/ r 60)) r (- r (* minutes 60)) seconds (fix r) ) (setq message (strcat "% complete:" (if (< (* 100 complete) 10) (strcat "0" (itoa (fix (* 100 complete)))) (itoa (fix (* 100 complete))) ) " Remaining:" (itoa days) ":" (itoa hours) ":" (if (< minutes 10)(strcat "0" (itoa minutes))(itoa minutes) ) ":" (if (< seconds 10)(strcat "0" (itoa seconds))(itoa seconds) ) );strcat );setq (grtext -1 message) );progn );if );defun (alert "Face-to-Solid loaded. Type F2S to run the program. \nNote: if many faces are selected, AutoCAD may crash due to memory limitations when unioning the many solids created from them, so please \nSAVE ALL OPEN DRAWINGS \n before using this routine with large numbers of faces. The routine will prompt for automatic or manual unioning; select manual to do the unioning yourself in smaller increments if automatic causes problems. \nAlso, see the introductory comments in the LISP file about cleaning up face coordinates to avoid unioning errors.")

Ahhhh d'accord, Il va faloir sousdiviser les forums maintenant,avec ou sans rubans :D

Tout pareil pour moi mon cher Didier.... dommage !!

la mise ne version libre des logiciels créés par le SETRA me semble bien improbable, et ceci pour une toute autre raison: Il suffit d'aller faire un tour sur le site de la DTRF pour s'apercevoir que rien n'est gratuit pour le SETRA y compris toute la documentation produite par les services techniques et instructeurs. ( Je trouve tout de même aberrant qu'il faille payer une norme ou texte que l'on a obligation d'apliquer....)

Si guess0169 à COVADIS (comme il l'écrit) tout cela est inutile cordialement

Si tu as covadis,c'est très simple: covadis 2D/points topographiques/chargement de semis tu vas chercher ton fichier tu choisis séparateur espace et tu valide le tour est joué cordialement

Il sagit d'absence de cotation dans les profils en travers dessinés ? Si oui : la solution est de rajouter dans le PRT utilisé pour le dessin des profils en travers des lignes de cotations supplémentaires, sans libellé dans les mêmes bandeaux que les cotations projets que l'on affecte sur la courbe Talus Cordialement

Vérifie que les variables: insunits,insunitsdefsource,insunitsdeftarget (au clavier) soit bien a la même valeur cordialement

Le developpement d'un nouvel objet Tabulation répondant entre autre a cette problématique est dans les cartons